Basic Fantasy RPG Forums

Hm. I like that, definitely. Would clerics get a hold of that too? It'd be convenient for them to not have to feel like they have to devote a whole lot of slots to Cure spells.

Thanks for all the good suggestions, everyone.

artikid wrote:Hi,
The GM's option chapter (dealing with players) of BFRPG allows M-Us to use any weapon (at -5 penalty if they are not proficient with it) and wear any armor (they just can't cast spells in it).
This means it already deals with Combat Options in a rather simple way.

Good point. I think I'll point this out in the supplement.

artikid wrote:The Combat Options of this supplement -instead- looks rather fiddly to me.
Why not make it simpler?

...

Option 2: Magic-Users may cast spells while wearing armor.
Option 3: Magic-Users may wear any light or medium armor, up to and including chainmail.
Option 4: (To be used with either Option 2 or 3.) Magic-Users may only wear armor specially made to allow them a full range of motion. See Appendix B for a list.

Not so OK IMHO
Wouldn't a single option about spell failure chance according to armor worn be simpler?
Like:

Option 2: Magic-users can cast magic spells while wearing armor, however spell-casting in armor may cause the spell to fizzle. Whenever a Magic-User casts a spell in armor roll 1d20, if the roll is higher than -or equal to- the armor's base AC the spell is successful, otherwise the spell fails and the spell slot is expended.

I like this. But, I won't get rid of the other options; I'll just add this one.

artikid wrote:

Option 5: Magic-Users may use all easily-learned weapons, including clubs, quarter staves, spears, and crossbows, in addition to daggers and cudgels.

I'd remove spears and crossbows from the list and add slings

I have to think about this.

artikid wrote:

Option 6A/6B

I'd list only one way of making Arcane Bolt work, personally I think 6B works best.

At this point, I'm not taking out these two options, and I'm actually going to add LL's suggestion. But, see my next comment in the thread.

artikid wrote: Regarding Option 7 I'd drop it completely.

Yeah, I think I'll merge this with 6A.

artikid wrote:EDIT: BTW I think that the Combat Options as they stand now might allow for single class M-Us to overshadow class combos as the Ftr/MU and Th/MU.

That's a valid point, so I'll have to think about this.

Solomoriah wrote:Back in the 2E era, I allowed a rule I called Cast at Will with Demotion. Basically, a spellcaster may employ any spell he or she knows, so long as the caster has an available spell slot of the correct or higher level (that's the demotion part). Using a higher level slot for a lower level spell grants no particular bonus; casting Magic Missile with a 3rd level slot, for instance, neither makes the magic missile any more powerful nor gives the caster any "change" back.

In a game where all spellcasters can do this, there are surprisingly few balance issues (though it's even more important to limit the casters in other areas so they don't dominate the game). It also makes it more likely that you'll see the "rare" spells get used, as the caster doesn't have to guess whether or not to prepare one on a given day.

This makes a lot of sense; in it goes!

Here's my current plan:

First, everyone should understand that r3 will be an intermediary release. It's mostly finished, and with all the ideas you folks have given me, it will be a significant improvement over r2. However, there have been some other great ideas that will take a while to finish, so r4 is already in the planning stage. In the spirit of "release early, release often," I want to get r3 out of the door ASAP and then get to work on those ideas for r4.

For r3, I don't plan to take anything out; pixels are cheap.

I do think I should re-organize a bit. I want to add in the options suggested, and the Combat Options part does seem a bit fiddly. So, I'm going to break Arcane Bolt into its own entry, then have separate Armor Options and Weapons Options entries.

Finally, I want to add in an 'Old School' rule set in the Example Rule Sets appendix. In it, I would like to put in the stuff that doesn't change the Core Rules at all, plus Artikid's & Solomoriah's suggestions, which seem more in the spirit of BF than some of the others.

I probably won't do the editing on this until tonight, so if anyone has any suggestions today, fire away. I would like to get r3 out of the door ASAP so I can shift work to r4, however.

Release 4 may be quite a different animal, possibly split into two supplements, but it shouldn't invalidate the work on release 3. Look for it in March (though, of course, it may not actually appear until somewhat later ...)

Also, if anyone is interested in looking at them, I would be very interested in any comments on the example rules sets in Appendix A.

Keep in mind I plan to add an "Old School" example rule set as well, w/ the options that together seem to keep the best Old School house rules feel about them.

Here's the new version of the third release for comments. At this point, the only feedback I'm interested in for r3 is proofreading and comments on the Example Option Sets in Appendix A.

HOWEVER, please make any other comments you want and I'll look at them for the fourth release.

EDIT 2/19/13: This version is no longer current, so I've removed the file.

Just to make it easier, here are the Sets:

Close to Core

These changes do not contradict anything in the Core Rules; they merely add new rules on top of the Core. They make the Magic-User somewhat tougher and more capable at low levels.

Give Magic-Users Bonus Spells for Intelligence and use the Saving Throw Bonus option to increase the magician's power and survival rating. Use the 0-Level Spells supplement and the Flavor option to add some fun. Finally, give the new magician a couple of spell scrolls as a graduation present from his master or from family members. These should have useful first-level spells for emergencies.

Dark Fantasy

For GMs and players who enjoy dark fantasy, the magician will need a little beefing up in a brawl and added flavor for the aesthetic.

Have all player characters regardless of class start at maximum HP. Allow magicians to wear leather armor, and let them use Weapons Option #2 [Magic-Users may use all easily-learned weapons, including clubs, quarter staves, spears, and crossbows, in addition to daggers and cudgels]. Use the Alternate Experience Table to help get the magician out of the lower levels quicker.

Add in Free Cantrip Use and the Flavor option to complement the aesthetics of these darker campaigns.

Heroic Fantasy

If all of the character classes are made more powerful, let magicians begin with maximum HP at first level, Bonus Spells for Intelligence, and the Saving Throw Bonus. Allow them to wear leather armor, use Weapons Option #2, and Arcane Bolt #1 [the dagger-like version]. Throw in Flavor for style.

High Magic

In a campaign with a lot of magic, the 'Magic' in Magic-User needs some emphasis. In these campaigns, magicians should not become more like Fighters. Bonus Spells, Inherent Detect Magic, Inherent Read Magic and the Saving Throw Bonus options all emphasize the magical nature of the character. Add in the Flavor and Free Cantrips options to help set the tone. Finally, Arcane Bolt #2 [target saves vs. magic] should become the magician's weapon of choice.

Military Fantasy

Magicians in a military fantasy campaign need basic military skills – everyone in an army is a soldier, no matter what their specialty is. GMs should give maximum hit points at first level and Bonus Spells. Use the Alternate Experience Table to help get the magician out of the lower levels quicker; youngsters grow up fast in war.

Magic-Users should be able to wear any light and medium armor, up to chain, specially fitted for them (Armor Option #3). They would also be able to use any easily-learned weapons (Weapons Option #2).

They would have the Inherent Detect Magic option for use in scouting teams. The Saving Throw Bonus should be included because fighting doctrine would probably be to use one's own Magic-Users to take out enemy Magic-Users, leading to more direct magician vs. magician combat, which in turn would lead to better defensive capabilities against magic.

Old School

Essentially, the Old School way seems to be to bend and tweak the Core Rules while staying within the spirit of the game.

Magicians get Arcane Bolt #1 [dagger-like], Armor Option #1 [artikid's suggestion w/ possible spell failure], Bonus Spells, Cast at Will with Demotion, Flavor, and Weapons Option #1 [Magic-Users may use some light weapons, including clubs, quarter staves, and slings, in addition to daggers and cudgels].

I think those packages seem pretty solid.

Another way for the MU's to use weapons is to use the non-proficiency penalty from RC which halves the damage done with a non-prof weapon, so MU's doesn't reduce their already low AB.

Other ideas can be letting a MU "learn" spells so he doesn't need his spellbook and letting low level spells "recharge" over some time, so he can cas more of them over a day but not over a single combat.

I've just sent the files for the third release to Solomoriah. If they pass, that will be that.

Thanks for your help, everyone!

Now, let's talk fourth release ...

This was a very interesting comment, and I wanted to revisit it.

Solomoriah wrote:I've never really put this into words, but when it comes to supplements, I prefer each supplement to be either "prescriptive" or "constructive."

A "prescriptive" supplement should provide, at most, one way to do things. It should be possible to use the supplement in its entirety without wrecking your game.

A "constructive" supplement should provide materials and advice for DIY changes to your game. Any supplement that provides more than one way to do things is constructive.

When a supplement is prescriptive, it can contain many more or less unrelated rules; if constructive, it should focus on the one thing its constructing.

When I created Combat Options, and accepted Thief Options, they were both prescriptive. You don't have to use all of either, but you can, and if you do, you haven't broken anything.

...

My main problem with Magic-User Options is that it's constructive. I had envisioned releasing a prescriptive Magic-User Options supplement of my own design, but I procrastinated too long...

What would a prescriptive MU Options supplement look like?

I suppose it would have one alternate armor rule, one alternate weapons rule, one arcane bolt rule, etc. But, if there were too many of these single options, using it all could be very unbalancing, so I suspect it would also have a very limited set of options.

Let's see, just using the third release, maybe:

• artikid's armor rule (roll d20, if you get < the armor's base AC, the spell fizzles)
• also his weapons rule (add clubs, staves, and slings)
• bonus spells for intelligence
• flavor effects
• cast at will with demotion
• saving throw bonus
• and MAYBE Smoot's version of Arcane Bolt

EDIT: And maybe this:

Solomoriah wrote:The number of spells a magic-user can cast per day represents the amount of magical energy the caster can hold in abeyance.

It would be possible to abstract those rules, allowing a caster to keep unused slots for spells, then use them in "long format" when needed. For instance, a magic-user might leave a first-level slot free, then spend a few minutes casting read magic or detect magic as needed. Such an unused slot would be useless in combat, so would represent a trade-off for the magic-user, but when the character reaches 5th level or so, leaving unused slots would add adventuring flexibility (particularly if he or she has a variety of spells available).

Anything else? Anything you'd remove?

The list you present would be "prescriptive," but it wouldn't get my approval. It improves the magic-user too much.

Frankly, I'm not sure I understand all this. This supplement, applied indiscriminately, would make magic-users far and away the best and most interesting class, and to me that's not the point of the game.

My list for a magic-user supplement is much shorter. For sure:

- Add clubs and staves, but no slings. Seriously, have you ever TRIED to hit anything with a sling? I might consider darts, but of course I'd have to add them to the game first.
- Bonus spells for intelligence.
- Saving throw bonus (would have to evaluate this carefully)

Maybe:

- artikid's armor rule

Never:

- Flavor effects. This is something the individual GM can do without need for substantial guidance. I did it years ago, and never felt the need to write it down; if a player asked about it, I'd do it again. To date, none have.
- Cast at will with demotion. This rule should be left in a "constructive" supplement, in my opinion, as it represents a major change to the game.
- Arcane Bolt. Same as the previous rule. Further, if I allowed Cast at will, I would NOT allow Arcane Bolt, and vice versa. Too much.