Scouts Supplement

Creating game materials? Monsters, spells, classes, adventures? This is the place!
User avatar
Dimirag
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:24 pm
Location: Buenos Aires (C.A.B.A.), Argentina
Contact:

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:57 am

cbarchuk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:08 am Again sounds like a Ninja
Same can be said for assassins, ninjas do scouting plus assassination...

With time overlapping between subclasses will occur, its a matter of giving each one their own niche, and in the case of very similar subclasses let the user chose which one they want to use.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
Drawing portfolio: https://www.instagram.com/m.serena_dimirag/
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:05 am

Same can be said for assassins, ninjas do scouting plus assassination...
I agree. I think the current Assassin is redundant as well. That's why I've done my own version.;) I like classes and even subclasses to be very distinct. I'm personally not a fan of overlap. I like everybody to be in their own lane however narrow that might be. I would like the Scout better if the whole 'wilderness' niche was removed and instead was more general. And isn't the better chance at surprising enemies a Ranger ability? Anyways now that I think it about it more the Scout is a much better Thief. The ONLY thing the Thief has that the Scout doesn't is removing traps and picking pockets. Even the Thief's sneak attack requires getting up close and personal. Heck I may just now scrap the Thief and use the Scout in its place...lol. Remove tracking and add remove traps back in.
Last edited by cbarchuk on Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:34 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Seven
Posts: 524
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:17 am

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:10 am

Solomoriah wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:39 am Seven, I'm liking your comments, especially this one:
Seven wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:24 amCould have some ability to spot outdoor traps, like pits and snares.
SPOTTING traps is different (better) than just detecting them on a search. But it shouldn't be too easy, and the mechanic has to be quick since the GM is expected to roll it (obviously).

Now to puzzle out how...
I must admit, I was mostly remembering things Gary wrote in his DF Q&As.
User avatar
Dimirag
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:24 pm
Location: Buenos Aires (C.A.B.A.), Argentina
Contact:

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:44 pm

cbarchuk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:05 am I agree. I think the current Assassin is redundant as well. That's why I've done my own version.;) I like classes and even subclasses to be very distinct. I'm personally not a fan of overlap. I like everybody to be in their own lane however narrow that might be.
I would like the Scout better if the whole 'wilderness' niche was removed and instead was more general.
What would be your concept and take on a general Scout class w/out wilderness and w/out overlapping with the thief?
And isn't the better chance at surprising enemies a Ranger ability?
Not per the Rangers and Paladins supplement. And even if Rangers had it, its nothing really exclusive of them.
Anyways now that I think it about it more the Scout is a much better Thief.
Not quite true, although 3 of their skills share the same values (Move Silently, Hide, and Listen) the other skills are lower, and due to XP costs the Thief has a slight advantage as he earns levels a tad sooner.
But this difference in levels is really small, I would slow down a little the improvement in those 3 skills to further maintain distance.
The ONLY thing the Thief has that the Scout doesn't is removing traps and picking pockets
And backstabbing
And a faster XP progress
daryen wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:53 am The sneaking, stalking, backstab, trap finding, tracking and various thief abilities all work great. But the whole bow thing is kinda weird.
Take the specialization as a way to reinforce avoiding melee combat, they are tougher than thieves, but avoid close combat more than them as contact with others is not part of their function.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
Drawing portfolio: https://www.instagram.com/m.serena_dimirag/
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:20 pm

What would be your concept and take on a general Scout class w/out wilderness and w/out overlapping with the thief?
I wouldn't have one...lol. A thief is already a scout to me especially in dungeons or urban areas. Rangers serve the same function in the Wilderness.
Not per the Rangers and Paladins supplement. And even if Rangers had it, its nothing really exclusive of them.
Well I meant according to how the Ranger is laid out in 1e, Osric, Advanced LL, and Advanced OSE. Rangers have awareness and increased surprise chance.
Not quite true, although 3 of their skills share the same values (Move Silently, Hide, and Listen) the other skills are lower, and due to XP costs the Thief has a slight advantage as he earns levels a tad sooner. But this difference in levels is really small, I would slow down a little the improvement in those 3 skills to further maintain distance.
That could work. I personally would be okay with replacing the thief with the Scout even with the slight XP increase. For me personally I would rather have one or the other.
And backstabbing
And a faster XP progress
I realize its only by level 5, but Scouts can do double damage from a distance. Because of this they will more reliably pull it off as opposed to a Thief who still has to get up close and personal. Now if you allow Thieves to have normal backstab progression (x2, x3, x4, x5) then I agree. The XP difference as you mentioned isn't much. And if the Scout is a human as well then they will level pretty quick.
User avatar
Solomoriah
Site Admin
Posts: 8976
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: LaBelle, Missouri
Contact:

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:35 pm

cbarchuk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:05 amI would like the Scout better if the whole 'wilderness' niche was removed and instead was more general.
I absolutely do not understand this. The Scout class as I envision it is based on a military scout, i.e. someone who scouts ahead of an army. They literally live in the wilderness, out of reach of supply lines, hunting for food when their rations run short. The "bow thing" is about taking out sentries, which is the secondary use case of the Scout in a military sense, but it also feeds into the "hunting for food" thing as well.

In a medieval environment, even city dwellers live closer to the land than the average modern person, so I can see how you might think about taking the wilderness out of the scout given such modern thinking... but even modern military scouts are generally expected to be able to forage, hunt, or otherwise make do in a wilderness environment.

Parallel to that in a medieval sense is the fact that the best "natural" scouts to enlist in your army are the hunters, i.e. people who already move quietly through the forest and pick off animals with their bows. Both Jason and my current playtester saw this as the obvious progression, even if Jason was following a literary source rather than a historical one.
My personal site: www.gonnerman.org
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:36 pm

Are we talking about the fantasy game of dungeons & dragons or real medieval history? I simply think the Scout is redundant. I feel the Ranger already fills this roll but I think you should add awareness (only surprised on a 1 and surprises on a 1-3) to the class which it normally has in original sources. What does your scout player want that the Ranger doesn't already fulfill? I assume he wants stealth...more HP...tracking...good at using a bow. The Ranger already does all those things. Add awareness back in, as it should've been, and the Scout isn't needed. What's left? Detect Traps & Open Locks? Sounds like a Thief. Why not roll a Thief and use a bow. You'll have better skills and faster XP progression. The d6 HD is less useful if you plan on using a bow all the time. I just don't see any point to the Scout class. Sorry. Just my 2 cents.
daryen
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:25 pm

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:31 pm

Solomoriah wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:35 pm
cbarchuk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:05 amI would like the Scout better if the whole 'wilderness' niche was removed and instead was more general.
I absolutely do not understand this. The Scout class as I envision it is based on a military scout, i.e. someone who scouts ahead of an army. ...
Because this is a Ranger. This is a "wilderness fighter". Maybe I just don't understand what a "wilderness thief" is, but "military scout" is definitely not it. The Ranger is the card-carrying military scout. That's like one of their defining roles.
User avatar
Dimirag
Posts: 2802
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:24 pm
Location: Buenos Aires (C.A.B.A.), Argentina
Contact:

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:05 pm

cbarchuk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:36 pm Are we talking about the fantasy game of dungeons & dragons or real medieval history?
The fantasy game of Basic Fantasy, no other games, either the one BF takes its bases off, nor any other OSR game. Basic Fantasy can stand on its own and do not need to look into other games when creating material unless the creator looks for that specific approach ;)
daryen wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:31 pm Because this is a Ranger. This is a "wilderness fighter". Maybe I just don't understand what a "wilderness thief" is, but "military scout" is definitely not it. The Ranger is the card-carrying military scout. That's like one of their defining roles.
"Thief" is the OSR way of saying "Rogue", characters that their primarily focus depends on their subterfuge skills.
The Ranger (fighter) is a warrior, trained to combat foes out in the wilderness.
The Scout (Thief) is a rogue, trained to move thru terrain an enemies, either to gather info, collect and object, or open the path for its party.
Both need to know to live from nature, same as barbarians, shamans and others...
They shared some skills, due to the similarity and difference of their concepts
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
Drawing portfolio: https://www.instagram.com/m.serena_dimirag/
User avatar
cbarchuk
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 7:30 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:14 pm

The fantasy game of Basic Fantasy, no other games, either the one BF takes its bases off, nor any other OSR game. Basic Fantasy can stand on its own and do not need to look into other games when creating material unless the creator looks for that specific approach ;)
Of course Chris, and any of us for that matter, can do what we want. But BF does indeed draw most, if not all, its inspiration from what came before. Anyways that is besides the point. Use the Scout or don't. Doesn't matter to me. I simply see it as a redundant class. You don't have to like my opinion that's why its my opinion. But I am offering it as food for thought. :D
I personally have tweaked the Ranger and added awareness. I also removed the whole 3/2 attacks a round and just added the 2nd attack at level 9. Viola. Though I think I might change the name of the class to Warden. Not sure yet. :)
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 11 guests