Scouts Supplement

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daryen
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:35 pm

Dimirag wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:05 pm
daryen wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:31 pm Because this is a Ranger. This is a "wilderness fighter". Maybe I just don't understand what a "wilderness thief" is, but "military scout" is definitely not it. The Ranger is the card-carrying military scout. That's like one of their defining roles.
"Thief" is the OSR way of saying "Rogue", characters that their primarily focus depends on their subterfuge skills.
The Ranger (fighter) is a warrior, trained to combat foes out in the wilderness.
The Scout (Thief) is a rogue, trained to move thru terrain an enemies, either to gather info, collect and object, or open the path for its party.
Both need to know to live from nature, same as barbarians, shamans and others...
They shared some skills, due to the similarity and difference of their concepts
Irrespective of their writeups, everything you described a Scout doing is something I would expect a Ranger to do. And I would be very disappointed if they couldn't. Their ability to fight in the wilderness is a side effect of them being able to do all of that other wilderness stuff.

Anyway, there was an ask for input, so I made some. That it was so badly off target is disappointing. (I am not disappointed that my input is rejected. I am disappointed that I just can't seem to understand what is being looked for.) But, good luck with the update on the class.

I will update my Compendium effort with the final version when it is completed.
Seven
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:37 am

In military terms, scouts are units sent out on reckon missions. They gather intelligence and try to avoid detection. Rangers is a term used to describe members of small independent light infantry units. Presumably, they can range--cover more ground--then regular units. This can be similar to militias composed of hunters.

In roleplaying terms, I always got the impression that Gary added rangers for the same reason he added elves and dwarves, to appeal to Tolkien fans. The Rangers of Middle-Earth were 2 groups of men who operated as described above, but who could talk to animals.

In game playing terms, the scout is the thief version and the ranger is the fighter version.
The ranger is better in combat. The scout is better at sneaking and hiding.
The scout does well with the bow because of its natural dexterity.
The ranger has more hit points and I personally don't favor rangers with bows, I view it as their secondary weapon. I also like to have a distinct Archer class which specializes with longbows. Those guys are handy in military formations, but less useful in forests with limited line of sight.
Rangers are sometimes cast as park rangers, individuals who police a wilderness area.
That's more a setting thing. I'm not really crazy about "favoured enemies". That's not good for my ecosystems.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:50 am

Seven wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:37 am In military terms, scouts are units sent out on reckon missions. They gather intelligence and try to avoid detection. Rangers is a term used to describe members of small independent light infantry units. Presumably, they can range--cover more ground--then regular units. This can be similar to militias composed of hunters.
THIS.

The Scout gets some combat advantages due to his or her sneakiness, but combat is not the primary focus. Recon is. Stealth is a major feature of the class. The fantasy Ranger has the job of going to exotic locations, meeting strange creatures, and killing them (something I saw in Dragon many years ago). The Scout has the goal of going to those same places, seeing but not engaging those creatures, and reporting back to HQ with the details. Sometimes a sentry must die so the Scout can get closer to the enemy encampment, and the Scout is good at doing this at a distance while remaining undetected, but that is not his or her primary duty.

The fall-off of the attack bonus combined with rising skill ratings means the Scout becomes less and less an infantry unit as he or she gains levels, while the Ranger just gets better at those things.

I have to say, looking at my own supplement, that I seem to have been conflating the modern Army Ranger with the fantasy Ranger. Not sure if this is good or bad. Both Ranger and Scout have some stealth, but the difference is, the Ranger uses it to get closer for a surprise attack while the Scout most often would be using it to get away undetected.
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Dimirag
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:03 am

How do you know the Ranger was in the forest? You look for the bodies.

How do you know the Scout was in the forest? You don't.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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cbarchuk
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:38 am

Well I gave my input. As long as you guys are happy with the class then that is all that matters at the end of the day. To me there's nothing in the Scout that couldn't simply be roleplayed either with a Thief or a Ranger. For example maybe you have a character who's background is that of a woodsmen or hunter etc...So for my own games I'm not just looking at things mechanically. To each their own.
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Dimirag
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:53 pm

Scouting Skills vs Thieving Skills
Are Scouting Skills supposed to work on any environment? Or they work only on the wilderness (with detecting traps working also in dungeons)? (Rangers suffer a -20% on urban areas)
I think they are to low if only usable in a specific environment, but some are to closer to Thieving values if working on any place...

Tracking Skill
Due to XP cost the Scouts is a better tracker (slightly at first, but as they level up the difference becomes greater), should they be at a similar skill or should the Ranger take the edge here?
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Seven
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:27 am

Solomoriah wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:50 am I have to say, looking at my own supplement, that I seem to have been conflating the modern Army Ranger with the fantasy Ranger. Not sure if this is good or bad. Both Ranger and Scout have some stealth, but the difference is, the Ranger uses it to get closer for a surprise attack while the Scout most often would be using it to get away undetected.
Same here. My Rangers are not tied to Druids, who use woodland creatures in the fantasy ranger role. Also, I have clerics with bows, who worship the goddess of the hunt. I also have the beastmaster as a separate class, based on the cleric also. My Rangers operate in the borderlands and report to the local fort or citadel, but as independent freelancers. A PC would have apprenticed that way as a teenager. A ranger would know languages such as orcish whereas a fighter would be mostly limited to civilized languages.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:28 pm

Dimirag wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:53 pm Scouting Skills vs Thieving Skills
Are Scouting Skills supposed to work on any environment? Or they work only on the wilderness (with detecting traps working also in dungeons)? (Rangers suffer a -20% on urban areas)
I think they are to low if only usable in a specific environment, but some are to closer to Thieving values if working on any place...
I don't see why they don't work in the dungeon, though it's reasonable there might be a penalty.
Dimirag wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 2:53 pm Tracking Skill
Due to XP cost the Scouts is a better tracker (slightly at first, but as they level up the difference becomes greater), should they be at a similar skill or should the Ranger take the edge here?
I don't think it's particularly unfair that the Scout would have the edge here. It's not huge, after all.
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Dimirag
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:14 am

Solomoriah wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:28 pm I don't see why they don't work in the dungeon, though it's reasonable there might be a penalty.
They totally should work in dungeons, but, should they work in urban areas such as towns in cities?
Should they have better chances in dungeons and wilderness areas compared to urban ones?
As it stands now a Thief is better at scouting on most skill. I think the Scout should have better chances than a Thief on wilderness areas, a slight penalty on dungeons and a bigger one on urban ones...
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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Seven
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Re: Scouts Supplement

Post Mon Mar 29, 2021 6:32 am

The thief could have a penalty for moving silently on outdoors area, not knowing where it's safe to step, but generally might have a higher score.
The thief hides in shadows. The scout might be better at hiding in nature by wearing the right clothes, painting his face, etc.
Overall, the scout should have better observation skills; recognizing faces, counting and estimating the number of people or creature, etc. Things that a thief would not care to practice.
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