Saving Throws

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efletch
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Re: Saving Throws

Post Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:54 pm

Thank you guys for the input!
Solomoriah wrote:I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone... play the game as written first. Don't even use supplements (you can always add them later). Until you know how the game is supposed to work, how do you know if you're making it better or not?
I hope to get started soon and think it will be BF that we try. I have been looking around at the different options to make sure which I wanted to try. It has been during this process that I learned that many people customize the games they play.
Solomoriah wrote:The one in the book. Not surprising, since I wrote it.
I am warming to the 5 category method. It helped that I saw in the core rules that you do list ability modifiers as being used in some cases. And you are right, fewer calculations.
Solomoriah wrote:Second, and more important, your method isn't just a different way to roll saving throws, it's a fundamental change in the game mechanics, because you take into account not only the character's own features but also the attacker's. It's a very rare thing in BFRPG to do anything like that... saving throws, attack rolls, you name it, they all depend on just the acting character's nature. Your method would substantially change the way the game "feels."

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. But it is different, enough so that I would say you're not really playing the same game anymore.
You are right. My interest has been to find something that feels balanced, allows some individuality of character feel, and has a low number of special rules. The crazy number of special class abilities in the newer games seems ludicrous to me. I would like to see someone produce a much simpler game based on the bounded accuracy system.

Have you or has anyone you are aware of produced and uploaded an audio or video cast while playing BF?
Dimirag wrote:You don't bother, at all, because you don't choose your Ability Scores, they are absolutely random generated. Abilities are not the central piece of the game like in 5ed nor have a big impact like in 3ed, they are a secondary value to help in some occasions, they serve more as a stereotypical guide than as a mechanical force.
In some game editions the modifiers ranges from -1 to +1, and only fighters get the STR bonus to attack and damage (other games go as far as letting only fighters to use the DEX bonus on range attacks).
I understand your drift and want our playing to be more role play oriented that stat and ability list oriented. Still, I think the ability modifiers of strength, dexterity and constitution are definitely going to be impacting for fighters in BF, while wisdom, dexterity and intelligence will only be incidentally impacting for clerics, thieves and magic-users.

I want to implement something relevantly impacting to make it feel more logical and fair. I will likely use the dexterity modifiers for thieves skills, and reduce the number of higher level spells for clerics and magic-users with lower ability score in wisdom and intelligence. That feels balanced to me.

I have mixed feeling about randomly generated ability scores. I don't like the idea of dumping charisma, but I also want players to be able to have skills somewhat oriented toward the class they want to play. And logically, I think a magic-user with 18 intelligence should somehow be more capable than one with 9 intelligence.
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Solomoriah
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Re: Saving Throws

Post Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am

efletch wrote:Have you or has anyone you are aware of produced and uploaded an audio or video cast while playing BF?
I don't think so, though I'd be very interested to see someone else running it.
efletch wrote:I have mixed feeling about randomly generated ability scores. I don't like the idea of dumping charisma, but I also want players to be able to have skills somewhat oriented toward the class they want to play. And logically, I think a magic-user with 18 intelligence should somehow be more capable than one with 9 intelligence.
You said earlier that you didn't think the bonus spells granted in the Magic-User Options supplement were significant enough. I have several players who would differ with you... a couple of extra Magic Missile spells can be the difference between success and failure for the whole party.
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Dimirag
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Re: Saving Throws

Post Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:27 am

efletch wrote:I understand your drift and want our playing to be more role play oriented that stat and ability list oriented. Still, I think the ability modifiers of strength, dexterity and constitution are definitely going to be impacting for fighters in BF, while wisdom, dexterity and intelligence will only be incidentally impacting for clerics, thieves and magic-users.
STR will impact more fighters and then everyone who wishes to enter into melee combat.
DEX will impact thieves as they don't have a penalty here, but will also impact everyone wishing to take part of range combat and everyone inside melee combat.
CON impacts everyone taking damage, and might be of more help to the poor thief and magic user with their low HD than the fighter.
But I get what you mean, physical abilities will appear in game more than mental, especially o those classes that rely more on them.
I want to implement something relevantly impacting to make it feel more logical and fair. I will likely use the dexterity modifiers for thieves skills, and reduce the number of higher level spells for clerics and magic-users with lower ability score in wisdom and intelligence. That feels balanced to me.
With your method you are making weaker a character for having a normal ability rather than making it better for having a high ability.
My suggestion: Use the Wis bonus on turning rolls and on the HD of turned creatures.
Use the INT bonus as a saving penalty, or as a damage bonus, or to increase the MU level for spell effect determinations (so it will affect all spells affected by level).
I have mixed feeling about randomly generated ability scores.
The problem with using non-random generation methods is the Gauss bell which makes high bonuses easier to achieve.
I don't like the idea of dumping charisma, but I also want players to be able to have skills somewhat oriented toward the class they want to play.
If used well Charisma is a really powerful ability. Class oriented skills are totally doable via roleplaying, or just choose a number of class oriented skills, then let the cleric add wisdom related skills up to its wis bonus and MU do the same with their INT.
And logically, I think a magic-user with 18 intelligence should somehow be more capable than one with 9 intelligence.
Capable in what sense? You can modified time and money costs when researching and learning spells. Give more spells. Increase spell effects. Give skills. It all depends on how you as the GM envision the use of a MU intelligence, but whats more important is that the INT must be used by the player and not by the rules.
Last edited by Dimirag on Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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efletch
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:37 pm

Re: Saving Throws

Post Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:54 pm

Thank you for the extra ideas concerning intelligence and wisdom scores for magic-users and clerics.
Dimirag wrote:
I don't like the idea of dumping charisma, but I also want players to be able to have skills somewhat oriented toward the class they want to play.
I actually misspoke, I meant to say, "...to be able to have abilities somewhat oriented toward the class they want to play."

I will be discussing these topics with my fellow players to see what we all agree on. Thanks again for all the input. I have got my head much more familiar with the numbers and practicality behind these ideas while discussing them. I am very pleased with the BF core package and the added ideas in the community supplements.

Hopefully, with rule consensus and my completion of a map we will get to play something out of the 1st Adventure Anthology next weekend!
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Dimirag
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Re: Saving Throws

Post Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:22 pm

Never forget the most important part, you are the GM, the game will use the mechanics you choose with or without the players knowing any change. Don't try to fix anything beforehand, unless you start seeing an imbalance in a mechanic then let it run its course.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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