Alternate Assassin for Basic Fantasy

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cbarchuk
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Alternate Assassin for Basic Fantasy

Post by cbarchuk »

UPDATE 7/13/2021 for my Alternative Assassin Class

My biggest issue with Assassins has always been that they are way too similar to the thief while having worse thieving skills which are already bad to begin with. Add to this that the main feature of the class revolves around using those skills especially stealth. That doesn't make any sense. You're basically left with an even crappier thief who can't even utilize his main ability. And this is a common issue with subclasses as they tend to be redundant compared to its core counterpart. My version here fixes that. Key differences compared to the default Assassin are listed below:
  • HD of 6 instead of 4
  • XP progression is the same
  • Can only wear leather but can use a shield
  • Improved Sneak Attack. Assassins should be better at this. They do triple damage. I removed Assassinate as I didn't like having it and Poison. I would rather the Assassins instant kill tactics be focused around the use of Poison hence why that skill has been fleshed out more. This makes Poisons more desirable and limited plus it could produce some interesting role play opportunities
  • Disguise
  • Fleshed out the use of Poisons. I wanted this to be a focal point of the class. This skill is expanded to be more useful and necessary
  • Thief Skills limited to Hide, Move Silently, Listen, & Climb Walls

    As you can the biggest difference is loss of some thieving abilities. But this change keeps the Thief & Assassin from stepping on each other's toes which is a good thing in my humble opinion. In addition I use my own thieving tables so that Thieves & Assassins actually have a decent chance of using their skills successfully even at level 1. I've always looked at the Thief as an opportunist who specializes in dungeoneering while the Assassin is your expert in stealth & subterfuge for the purpose of killing. Pick your poison. Enjoy.
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cbarchuk
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Assassins

Post by cbarchuk »

Not sure if this should be posted under the Assassin's supplement sub forum or not. If this is the wrong spot I apologize. Wanted to get some player's and DM's feeback on how this class is handled in your games in terms of Assassination and Poison to be specific.

1. Since poison is a save or die effect, do most folks here think it's okay for the Assassin to be able to buy poisons or think they should make it themselves?
2. GMs, do you put any sorts of limits on the Assassination ability? Can any monster literally be Assassinated for example? Also the supplement lists not granting a monster who is 2 levels or more lower than the Assassin a saving throw. Do most follow this optional idea?
3. In earlier editions the Assassin had to achieve surprise in order to Assassinate something. In this version it looks like the Assassin follows the same protocols as a thief backstabbing where surprise isn't necessary. How have others played this?

Thanks
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Dimirag
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Re: Assassins

Post by Dimirag »

This is how I would do it:
1. Since poison is a save or die effect, do most folks here think it's okay for the Assassin to be able to buy poisons or think they should make it themselves?
Buy it on illegal places and risk prison or worse.
2. GMs, do you put any sorts of limits on the Assassination ability? Can any monster literally be Assassinated for example?
No restrictions on humanoids, for other creatures I might ask for some previous anatomy knowledge and could give a ST bonus if seems right for the creature's anatomy. (I take assassination as a strike on a vital point, something that the assassin must be aware of and the victim must have).
Also the supplement lists not granting a monster who is 2 levels or more lower than the Assassin a saving throw. Do most follow this optional idea?
I would't follow it, I like the chance of failure.
3. In earlier editions the Assassin had to achieve surprise in order to Assassinate something. In this version it looks like the Assassin follows the same protocols as a thief backstabbing where surprise isn't necessary. How have others played this?
Same as in Backstabb, but I would add a -2 surprise penalty on the ST.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
Drawing portfolio: https://www.instagram.com/m.serena_dimirag/
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cbarchuk
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Re: Assassins

Post by cbarchuk »

Dimirag wrote: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:36 pm This is how I would do it:
1. Since poison is a save or die effect, do most folks here think it's okay for the Assassin to be able to buy poisons or think they should make it themselves?
Buy it on illegal places and risk prison or worse.
2. GMs, do you put any sorts of limits on the Assassination ability? Can any monster literally be Assassinated for example?
No restrictions on humanoids, for other creatures I might ask for some previous anatomy knowledge and could give a ST bonus if seems right for the creature's anatomy. (I take assassination as a strike on a vital point, something that the assassin must be aware of and the victim must have).
Also the supplement lists not granting a monster who is 2 levels or more lower than the Assassin a saving throw. Do most follow this optional idea?
I would't follow it, I like the chance of failure.
3. In earlier editions the Assassin had to achieve surprise in order to Assassinate something. In this version it looks like the Assassin follows the same protocols as a thief backstabbing where surprise isn't necessary. How have others played this?
Same as in Backstabb, but I would add a -2 surprise penalty on the ST.

Thanks for the tips Dimirag. As always you are wealth of useful information. Hey I just stumbled upon your Assassin Quasi class. It is fantastic! It's much better than the Assassin Class supplement which I feel has too much crossover with the thief. I like how yours is more tightly focused on the assets that make an Assassin an Assassin such as stealth. I'm going to try yours out as I'm playing an Assassin in a current game. I did have a few questions concerning your version:

1. Is your version of the Poison ability used when making poisons or when applying them to a weapon?
2. I haven't used any Quasi classes so let me make sure I understand the XP: A Thief/Assassin would need 36000xp to reach level 6. Does that sound right?
3. A level 1 Thief/Assassin would have a 30 in HIDE and a 40 in MS correct?
4. Can this Quasi Assassin class use the thief allocation point option as described on page 153 of the core rules? If so how would that work since they have less skills?
5. Can this Quasi Assassin be any race?
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Dimirag
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Re: Assassins Supplement

Post by Dimirag »

Thanks for the kind words!
As to not hijack this thread I'm answering on the Quasi Classes 2 thread if that's ok with you guys.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
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cbarchuk
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Re: Assassins Supplement

Post by cbarchuk »

Yep! No problem. Good point. I'll see ya there! :D
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Re: Assassins Supplement

Post by cbarchuk »

I have suggestion: What about adding in a bonus or penalty to the death saving throw based on the difference in level between the Assassin and the target? Now I realize an instant kill ability has to be watched over carefully to not be abused. But an Assassin trying to kill a dwarf or halfling is going to have an extremely difficult time. Another option is to give the Assassin an increasing penalty modifier that is applied to the target. OSE does this. It starts at 0 but then at level 4 its a -1 and it grows from there. Now the supplement does give an option of denying a saving throw if the target is 2 more levels lower than the Assassin. This addresses the issue as well but like it might be too much. I dunno.
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Dimirag
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Re: Assassins Supplement

Post by Dimirag »

Although its common for some games (ranger and animals, bard and people) I think its not necessary to add that extra layer, spellcasters are the most common to provoke saving throws and they don't get that benefit, I think its better to leave them all at the same level.
Sorry for any misspelling or writing error, I am not a native English speaker
Drawing portfolio: https://www.instagram.com/m.serena_dimirag/
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cbarchuk
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Re: Assassins Supplement

Post by cbarchuk »

Well that's true but original BX/BECMI doesn't have an official Assassin class to draw from so the whole class is essentially house-ruled. Now in the Masters set book it features rules to turn a Thug into a PC of sorts. And it's chance for Assassination is 50% but receives a penalty or bonus based on the targets level. Osric/1e essentially does the same thing. Even Advanced OSE allows the Assassin to apply a penalty to the target. So the only inspiration we have is either from:

Osric/1e has the Assassination tables but the math is the more or the less the same.
If an assassin gains surprise (see “Combat”) he or she may elect to assassinate the victim. The assassin need not roll to hit for an assassination attempt, which is a special attack resulting in a chance to kill the victim instantly and ensure damage even if the victim is not successfully killed. The percentage chance to kill a victim is 50%, with a bonus of 5% per level of the assassin and a penalty of 5% for every two levels of the target (rounding down; in the case of monsters, substitute “hit dice” for “level”). These numbers are approximate, for the GM should modify the assassin’s chances slightly upward or downward according to the circumstances—guarded or wary targets are less likely to be killed, and unwary victims are more likely to die. If the assassination attempt does not succeed, the attack still inflicts normal damage, together with any applicable bonuses. The assassin does not gain backstab multiple damage on a failed assassination attempt, even if the assassination attempt was made from behind.
Here's the OSE Assassin. The penalty mentioned grows as the Assassin levels.

Assassination (AS): When attacking
an unaware humanoid from behind, an
assassin gains a +4 bonus to hit. If the
attack succeeds, the victim must save
versus death with a penalty dependent
on the assassin’s level (noted in the table
opposite). If the save fails, the victim is
instantly killed, otherwise the assassin’s
attack inflicts normal damage.

Masters Set book Thug
If a prepared thug gains surprise, the victim may be slain with a single
blow, regardless of hit points. No Hit roll is made; instead, the
base chance of success is 50 % , modified by the difference in Hit Dice,
as follows: if the victim’s level is greater than the Thug’s, subtract 5 %
per Hit Die; if the victim’s level is less than the Thug’s, add 5 % per
Hit Die. If the thug does not gain surprise, a normal Hit roll is made,
and normal damage is inflicted if the attempt succeeds. A successful
hit may also require the victim to make a Saving Throw vs. Poison if
the thug is using a poisoned blade.
I personally like to draw from original sources when possible. That's just me. So I may personally change how the ability works or else as the Assassin levels his main ability will rarely work. As the Assassin levels he should get better at Assassinating since all his targets are improving in their saving throws.
Last edited by cbarchuk on Fri Jan 29, 2021 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Assassins Supplement

Post by cbarchuk »

Now all that being said I've never been a huge fan of an instant kill ability. It's janky. It's hard to balance especially with a class that revolves itself around one ability. It's either too strong or too weak no matter how you tweak it. I personally would prefer to simply give an Assassin backstab that is enhanced and leave all the instant kill stuff to poison which is usually in limited supply. Backstab is way more useful and consistent. A simple buff could be to do what S&W does and allow the Assassin to add his level to the damage total. Or since there is no backstab progression in BF allow the Assassin to start with x3 backstab. Having Assassinate and Poison is redundant in my view. And I would also remove some of the thief skills to make Assassins and Thieves more distinct from each other while improving their stealth abilities. I made a custom Assassin for IF and S&W that I feel fleshes out the class more. But it makes the Assassin different from the thief. If you want a dungeoneering expert then play a thief. Want a martially-focused stealth expert then play an Assassin. Otherwise you're playing a class who's main ability revolves around using stealth that the class itself sucks at; even worse than the thief. That doesn't make any sense. So you're left with an even crappier thief who can't even use his main ability. If no poison is available then that increases the suckage. Disguise...might be useful, might not be.

Assassins should be good at stealth, surprise, poison, and backstab

Thieves should be a good at...well...thievery while being the occasional opportunist.
Last edited by cbarchuk on Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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