Sorcerers Supplement
Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
So I have question about Sorcerers and the spells they may use, namely when factoring in the addition of 7th level spells from the New Spells supplement.
My question is can Sorcerers use 7th level spells at all? I'm not sure if they where designed intentionally not be able to balance out their ability to use any known spell at a whim, or if the Sorcerer's supplement and level list within have yet to be updated to reflect the possibility of using 7th level spells when said supplement is allowed in a game.
I also have a second question, a little confusion related to what level spells a Sorcerer of a given level can use, while it gives both a spell point and max spell level chart for each level in the text explaining how the Sorcerer plays it says: "Further, the Sorcerer may only learn spells which he or she may cast (thus, only Magic-User spells may be so learned, and the Sorcerer must be able to cast spells of the given Magic-User spell level)."
The part in bold confuses me greatly, as it seems to contradict the table provided. Could anyone clarify if they would so kind? Thanks in advance for any insight.
My question is can Sorcerers use 7th level spells at all? I'm not sure if they where designed intentionally not be able to balance out their ability to use any known spell at a whim, or if the Sorcerer's supplement and level list within have yet to be updated to reflect the possibility of using 7th level spells when said supplement is allowed in a game.
I also have a second question, a little confusion related to what level spells a Sorcerer of a given level can use, while it gives both a spell point and max spell level chart for each level in the text explaining how the Sorcerer plays it says: "Further, the Sorcerer may only learn spells which he or she may cast (thus, only Magic-User spells may be so learned, and the Sorcerer must be able to cast spells of the given Magic-User spell level)."
The part in bold confuses me greatly, as it seems to contradict the table provided. Could anyone clarify if they would so kind? Thanks in advance for any insight.
Last edited by JakeCWolf on Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
Most supplements (but with some exceptions) are written in such a way as to only address the Core Rules. This is to prevent multiple co-dependencies, by design. This way, when one wants one supplement, it does not create a situation where multiple other supplements are then required as well.
That said, it is obvious that when certain multiple supplements are chosen for use, some thought might be necessary to implement both at the same time. Your case in point. Use your best judgement.
But, if it were me. I would allow the use of 7th level spells if your game is of that level, and simply expand the spell list and spells/level progression. However, it may be an irrelevant endeavor if your game is nowhere near that high level point. I would not bother with the trouble unless your game actually goes to that level.
That said, it is obvious that when certain multiple supplements are chosen for use, some thought might be necessary to implement both at the same time. Your case in point. Use your best judgement.
But, if it were me. I would allow the use of 7th level spells if your game is of that level, and simply expand the spell list and spells/level progression. However, it may be an irrelevant endeavor if your game is nowhere near that high level point. I would not bother with the trouble unless your game actually goes to that level.
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Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
Freeing from co-dependancy is usually a good idea, so that makes sense, we will be likely not be seeing high level so in hindsight I guess that question is rather moot for my given situation.
I did edit my post with a second question about Sorcerer level/spell level. Need a little insight on that question too.
I did edit my post with a second question about Sorcerer level/spell level. Need a little insight on that question too.
Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
Not so sure about what that portion is trying to say. Perhaps someone else can address that. What I think it trying to say (but overly wordy) is that Sorcerers can only use MU spells, as in no other class or variant spells (ie. No Cleric spells).
However, when it comes to Sorcerers, you may want to look in the Showcase section for "Fey-Mage" where I have written what is essentially an Alternative Sorcerer using different mechanics (specifically look at the end of the document for even more ideas for Sorcerers, including one that is more akin to the traditional sorcerer, but using the alternative way of addressing spells).
However, when it comes to Sorcerers, you may want to look in the Showcase section for "Fey-Mage" where I have written what is essentially an Alternative Sorcerer using different mechanics (specifically look at the end of the document for even more ideas for Sorcerers, including one that is more akin to the traditional sorcerer, but using the alternative way of addressing spells).
Is it really the end, not some crazy dream?
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Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
Updating the Sorcerer supplement to address this might be a good idea. Use of 7th level spells is common, after all. The Sorcerer supplement hasn't really been touched since before New Spells was published.
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Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
One more thing for the to-do list? Maybe I'll have a go myself, maybe do a little of the grunt work for it since I had to open my big mouth and point out the problem... lol
Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
Hope double posting with good reason isn't frowned upon, if it is I apologize in advance. Here's my own take on adding 7th level spells to the Sorcerer's leveled spell list
The only thing I did was bump up when a Sorcerer gains access to 5th and 6th level spells by one level, allowing them to gain access to 7th level spells at 19th level. I feel it's fair trade to gain them at 19th level, given they can cast no less then anywhere from one to three 7th level spells they might learn a stagger 26 times a day.
Comparatively a Magic-User gets their first 7th level at spell at 13, but only gets one use and a max of 3 by 20th level. Sorcerers "late game" is pretty absurdly overpowered, assuming they actually learn new spell(s) before leveling up again, but still I wonder how many campaigns would reach 19th level to begin with.
This change would also buff them, gaining 5th and 6th level spells sooner, but I don't think it unbalances them too much, but that's just what I think, what does everyone else think? The full list is below an Excel spreadsheet attached as well.
Lvl. SP MSL
1 1 1
2 2 1
3 3 1
4 4 2
5 5 2
6 7 2
7 8 3
8 10 3
9 11 3
10 14 4
11 16 4
12 18 4
13 19 5
14 20 5
15 21 5
16 22 6
17 24 6
18 25 6
19 26 7
20 27 7
The only thing I did was bump up when a Sorcerer gains access to 5th and 6th level spells by one level, allowing them to gain access to 7th level spells at 19th level. I feel it's fair trade to gain them at 19th level, given they can cast no less then anywhere from one to three 7th level spells they might learn a stagger 26 times a day.
Comparatively a Magic-User gets their first 7th level at spell at 13, but only gets one use and a max of 3 by 20th level. Sorcerers "late game" is pretty absurdly overpowered, assuming they actually learn new spell(s) before leveling up again, but still I wonder how many campaigns would reach 19th level to begin with.
This change would also buff them, gaining 5th and 6th level spells sooner, but I don't think it unbalances them too much, but that's just what I think, what does everyone else think? The full list is below an Excel spreadsheet attached as well.
Lvl. SP MSL
1 1 1
2 2 1
3 3 1
4 4 2
5 5 2
6 7 2
7 8 3
8 10 3
9 11 3
10 14 4
11 16 4
12 18 4
13 19 5
14 20 5
15 21 5
16 22 6
17 24 6
18 25 6
19 26 7
20 27 7
- Attachments
-
- Sorcerer 7th SP.xls
- Excel 2003 Spreadsheet, yes 2003, made by a 13 year old version of Excel.
- (22 KiB) Downloaded 375 times
Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
I made a picture. Also, I learned how to make tables into pictures.
Re: Sorcerers Supplement
Since there are proposed updates/changes I've merged the newer GD thread with the Sorcerers workshop thread.
Re: Sorcerers and 7th Level Spells
Thank you, but that came off as a little... rude.pinewood wrote:I made a picture. Also, I learned how to make tables into pictures.
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